Value-Based Care Without the Buzzwords: Practical Steps in Dentistry with Caitlin Walsdorf

Kinda Different is back with a practical conversation with Caitlin Walsdorf from Healthscape Advisors about where dental innovation is really happening, why “value-based care” fatigue is real, and how rebuilding trust across payers, providers, employers, and patients opens the path to better benefits and better health.

Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, read the transcript below, or watch here!

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What we cover

▸ The state of dental benefits and why oral health is finally getting real attention
▸ Concrete innovations making a dent: diagnostics, smart devices, saliva and microbiome testing, AI, and enablement tech
▸ Why the words “value-based care” turn people off, and better ways to make progress with pilots and shared goals
▸ The payer–provider–patient triangle, plus the employer’s role, and how to align incentives without creating new friction
▸Medicare Advantage benefits season and what MA design signals for seniors’ oral health
▸Trust as the system’s missing infrastructure and how to rebuild it
▸Making care more human through shared decision making, plain-language explanations, and access to your own data

Five takeaways

1. Oral health is no longer “ancillary.” It is connected to overall wellness and deserves modern benefit design that proves ROI to employers and government programs.
2. Progress beats perfection. Pilot with a single payer–provider partnership, learn fast, and share results so the industry can iterate.
3. Trust drives adoption. Patients need price clarity and agency. Payers and providers need to assume positive intent and measure outcomes together.
4. MA is a bellwether. Watch how dental is packaged for seniors to anticipate design shifts and member expectations across segments.
5. Human beats hype. Shared decision making and plain language build confidence faster than any new acronym.

About Caitlin

Caitlin is a partner at HealthScape Advisors, focused on ancillary markets. She has worked on the front lines of payer strategy and supplemental benefits, including a widely cited survey on value-based care readiness across dental.

Transcript
What's up, everyone? Welcome back to another episode of Kinda Different, a podcast where we talk about innovation in dental care. We meet some amazing people within the industry, people that you may not know, but you definitely should know.
And we talk about how we all together can make dental care and healthcare in general more human. I am Dr. Matt Allen, the CEO and co-founder of DifferentKind, and your host for Kinda Different. I am super excited for, I say this every single week, but I am super excited for the conversation today.
I feel like as the seasons of Kinda Different have gone on, we continue to find people who serve really interesting and important roles in the oral health ecosystem that people might not be familiar with. And today is absolutely no exception to that. Super excited to welcome Caitlin Walsdorf, who is a partner at Healthscape Advisors.
She will tell you a little bit more about what that means, but I have gotten to know Caitlin a little bit over the past several months through something that NADP or National Association of Dental Plans puts on called Consortium. We will probably end up talking a little bit more about that. But her depth of knowledge on what we talk about in terms of the payer and the provider and the patient and even beyond that, we'll kind of get into that, is just really exceptional and I'm just really excited to chat with her today.
So Caitlin, thank you so much for taking the time to join us this morning. If you would be so kind, please tell us just a little bit more about yourself and then we'll get into the question.
Yeah, happy to do that and thanks for having me, Matt. As a fellow dental nerd, I am very excited to talk all things teeth with you today. But just by quick way of background, I'm Caitlin Walsdorf, a partner with the Healthscape team.
We are focused 100 percent in health care. Healthscape is actually part of the Tardis Group, which is a broader health care management consulting firm. But at Healthscape specifically, I lead our ancillary practice, which you can think of as providing consulting services to largely payers, but also some providers focused in the ancillary markets, so dental, vision, hearing.
I actually began my career at Healthscape, but I do have a bit of a mix of consulting and industry experience. So I spent a couple of years at iMed Vision Care, where I was focused on strategic partners in the government program space. I boomeranged back to the Healthscape team at the beginning of 2021.
So time flies. It's been almost five years since I've been back.
And you, like I said, have this incredible depth of knowledge that I think people will find really, really interesting. And for all of you other dental nerds out there, you may be familiar with Healthscape from last year. They partnered with CareQuest on the kind of like most, I would say most current value-based care kind of readiness report that came out.
And so I'm sure, Caitlin, you and your team were a part of that. Lots of really great research and insights there. So thank you for making sure we're all aware of the kind of value-based care, appetite, and readiness in the oral health care industry.
So I'll say that on behalf of all of us other dental nerds, right? But I already mentioned this piece, Caitlin, in terms of kind of the fraught triangle of the payer, the provider, and the patient. And that doesn't really even take into consideration the employer and how that all comes into play here as well.
So as we think about innovation in that space, what do you see as kind of the current landscape of things? Let's start with kind of that just kind of broad view of, here's where we see innovation happening that might be impacting all of those players, or certainly driving things forward or causing people to react, even let's say, in that kind of fraught triangle.
Yeah. Well, I think the good news is that oral health seems like it's finally getting the attention that it deserves. You know, for so long, and I even said it in my intro, but dental has been treated as ancillary to medical.
Silo somewhat commoditized from a benefit perspective, and certainly, I think, under invested from an innovation perspective when you think about the attractiveness of some of the opportunities in the space. But as you well know, you know, oral health is so much more than just teeth. It's a critical component of overall wellness connected to diabetes, cardiovascular disease, neurodegenerative diseases, even pregnancy outcomes.
And at a human level, oral health is about your smile and your confidence. I really feel that we are at an inflection point from a dental benefits perspective. I think dental plans continue to appreciate that there is a real need to prove value and an ROI on a dental benefit to employers and also to other financiers of dental care, so folks like the government.
There's a lot of pressure right now to do more with the dental benefit. And at the same time, we're seeing so much innovation really accelerate across multiple fronts. When you think about things like smart devices, smart toothbrushes, diagnostics, saliva testing, and microbiome testing, new treatments like some of the regenerative therapies that are out there, enabling technology, of course we have to mention AI.
I think plans are starting to really think about how they can more meaningfully incorporate a lot of those innovations into benefit design and in ways that drive real and quantifiable value to their membership basis.
That's such a great starting point I think for us and to your point of kind of the history of oral health and even in the innovation space of where that tends to land, right? I think this will come out after, yeah, it'll come out sometime in the future. So I can say this.
So at DifferentKind, we just were announced as a finalist for the Digital Health Awards, which is super exciting and they're like, oh, cool, you can claim your profile on digital.health, so like landscape for all this digital innovation. And I went on there and it was like categories of innovation and oral health was not on there and veterinary care was. So not only were the teeth separated from the body in that way, but certainly our pets were being put before our teeth.
So I just thought that that was a really interesting way of kind of contextualizing exactly what you just said. And I think there is, like you said, just this kind of wave coming, right? Maybe it hasn't crested quite yet, but we can certainly feel it starting to swell in terms of, you know, hey, this is changing, and we all can kind of feel that.
So you are on a part of not only helping that wave continue to build and start to crest, but in terms of understanding where it's at and just, you know, you have such a great perspective on this. So I'm curious, you know, from your perspective, what are you most excited to be working on right now within that landscape that you just described?
Yeah, you know, my role is a lot of fun, because I get to help folks harness all this momentum that we talked about, right? I get to help folks think about how they can modernize dental benefits, how we can better align incentives between payers and providers, how we can continue to make oral health a more meaningful driver of overall health. And, you know, that impact and being able to be part of that impact is something that I don't take for granted, and I look forward to working on every day.
So I am so excited that we are at this kind of real inflection point, and we're starting to see some movement. It is certainly a long journey, and it won't always be an easy journey. But I'm excited to be at the start of it with all of my clients and other folks within the oral health ecosystem.
So that is certainly something that keeps me excited and motivated to come to work every day. And then I would say just as a bonus, given that we sit at October 2nd here, I am anxiously, and maybe not so patiently, awaiting the drop of the Medicare Advantage benefits data, which hopefully is imminent any moment here. Our team at Healthscape does a great job of ingesting all of that benefits data and slicing and dicing it to get to detailed supplemental benefits insights.
We know that this upcoming AEP in the Medicare Advantage market is likely to be one of the most disruptive in memory, so we can't wait to get into those files and see exactly what folks are doing with their dental benefit this year. We know how important oral health is, particularly for our seniors, so we can't wait to see where the market shakes out.
When you were saying, I can't wait for the drop, usually that's followed by some cool album, or maybe if they're like a gamer, it's like a new game, or something. I don't know. It's like, we're waiting for the drop of the Medicare Advantage.
I love that. I think it speaks to the kinds of things that we care deeply about, and that get us excited. And certainly, that is such a frontier, I would say, in terms of, I would say even within dentistry, right?
There's DSOs and a lot of people who are in that space who still are not maybe up to speed in terms of where they should be on Medicare Advantage. So obviously, you have such a leading role there, which I totally appreciate. I love this question because I feel like it kind of gets at like, there's lots of a hard road to hoe sometimes in terms of, hey, like this is what it looks like to create change within the industry.
But if you could, just wake up tomorrow, wave your magic wand, something is better, something is different. What is the one thing where you're like, boom, that's the first thing I would use that wand for?
Gosh, if I had a magic wand and I could change one thing in dentistry overnight, I actually think it would be to rebuild some trust across the ecosystem, patients, providers, payers. Right now, I think too many patients feel like dental insurance and their dental benefit is just this maze of limitations and exclusions and fine print, and that is really eroding confidence in the system. And then at the same time, payers and providers often feel pitted against each other from an authorization and a reimbursement perspective.
You mentioned in the intro, which thank you for doing that, but in the spring of last year, I had the opportunity to partner with some really smart folks at NADP and at the CareQuest Institute on a survey focused on value-based care in the dental space. As part of that survey, we invited a number of payers, so about 40 organizations, and a number of multi-site providers, so representing about 3,400 locations. And we asked them all sorts of questions about their interest in value-based care, their experience with value-based care, their perspective on value-creation opportunities, their perspective on perceived barriers.
And that survey ultimately showed that payers and providers are actually pretty aligned on their value-based program goals much more than I think we appreciate. Both parties in that survey ranked improved preventive care for kids and improved preventive care for adults as the two most important goals of value-based care. And these are things that we can all align on and create some progress and some forward momentum on.
But we can't make that forward progress if we don't trust each other. And in that same survey, we asked questions about the perceived motivation of the other party. So we asked payers about providers and then we asked providers about payers.
And both parties, when speaking about the counterpart, said they're definitely most interested in financial gain. And don't get me wrong, value-based care, the economics have to work in order for the model to work. But payers and providers should feel like partners in oral health, not barriers to one another.
So that's my long-winded way of saying if I could solve one thing in the oral health ecosystem, it would actually be to instill some trust across the parties involved here.
Well, that's certainly apropos in terms of just our podcast, the episode that actually just dropped today. We're recording, but we just had an episode drop today with Corey Shearer from Trust Center Consulting, specifically talking about trust within health care and how we measure that and how we think about some of that. So really an interesting wave of the magic wand there.
But I would love to dig in just real quickly on value-based care, just to get your perspective on this idea. Because I do think some of the headwinds that maybe we struggle with are due to the failures or lack of progress, let's say, that medical care has made within that realm. And sometimes I feel like even just that term is actually maybe what's preventing us from moving forward sometime.
And as we think about maybe different ways of kind of getting at the goals of value-based care, thinking about kind of alternative payment models or, you know, however we might kind of phrase it even differently, rather than just value-based care, which I think can kind of just cause some people to get defensive, might be more effective. Curious to your perspective on that and how you see the kind of wake, you know, the medical wake of value-based care and what that has done to either, you know, kind of actually chop up the water more and make it more difficult for us, or, you know, kind of create, you know, a path to follow.
Yeah, you know, two things you said I think are really on point. One is, we do have all of this baggage from the medical side of the industry as it relates to value-based care, and two is that people are tired of the phrase, right? We asked some questions, and that was one of the findings of the survey was, like, people don't want to talk about, there is such fatigue when it comes to the term value-based care, because the parties involved feel like we've been talking about it forever and we're not making meaningful progress.
To me, I think we certainly have real barriers and challenges to solve for, right? Lack of diagnosis codes, aligning on a clinical standard, those are real things that we have to tackle. But what I took away in the spirit of optimism from that survey is that there are a couple of things that we can do right now to take some incremental steps forward, and that to me is assuming positive intent and also just being willing to come to the table in small ways.
So how can we find, if I'm a plan, how can I find a single provider partner to design a pilot with, to launch it, to quickly learn from it, or quickly fail, share the results to move forward as an industry. But we can solve so much if we just all come to the table with a little bit more positive intent than maybe we have in the future. I think we could be at the start of something interesting here.
Cool. Well, that's great. I would encourage if you have not read it, we'll put a link to the report that Caitlin is referencing here in the show notes.
Definitely encourage you to check it out. Some really interesting insights. Like I said, it's been fun for me to share.
Our board members have read it right there. They're like, I don't know dentistry as well as I should. I'm like, great, read this report.
This is where the industry is at. So like I said, you've done a great job of helping educate all of us. So really appreciate that.
Awesome. Well, I always love to kind of get beyond just like, lots of podcasts out there talk about AI and innovation or whatever it might be. But I was to your point of being creating trust, building humanity, like all those different pieces love to learn more about the people that we're actually chatting with so that it's like the next time you see somebody at a show or a conference or whatever, it's not just like, hey, this is your LinkedIn profile.
And so yeah, I'd love to learn a little bit more about you. Curious, I think one of the things that I've always found about really interesting people in general is that they tend to be kind of consuming ideas or kind of creating things musically or art or things like that. But I always feel like generally people that I end up having really good conversations with tend to be readers or tend to be interested in some of those things.
So yeah, I would love to hear from you, reader, music, something like that. What kind of floats your boat? And if you are one of those couple of things, what's something from the past year that's really been resonating with you?
Yeah, I love that question. And I am definitely a book person. Reading, I think, gives me both a way to slow down a little bit and also expand my perspective.
I will read almost anything, especially if someone that I like or that I trust says, hey, this is worth the read. And I think that started when I was little. I was a pretty ferocious reader as a little kid.
And a big part of that was because my grandfather, pretty much every time I visited him, used to have just like this stack of books that he would set at the edge of his office desk. And I could take them home and just devour them. And that translated, you know, I probably lost touch with reading a little bit as a young teen and into college as everyone does.
But in my adult life, that's really translated into both still a love of reading, but also a bit of an audiobook habit. Though I read, you know, a lot less Harry Potter these days and a lot more non-fiction. But when I think about like what's inspired me the most, I love to read and I try to consume a lot of content.
But I actually think that music is more of an emotional anchor and a source of inspiration for me personally. So someone that I've been thinking a lot about, actually of late post his death was Jimmy Buffett. And I know that sounds crazy, but like stay for one minute here.
I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm here.
I grew up listening to a lot of Jimmy Buffett. So my dad used to restore old cars and we would go on these late night cruises in the summer to an ice cream place that was certainly farther away than it needed to be. And there was always Jimmy Buffett blasting in the background.
And so his music has really always elicited like this sense of warmth and nostalgia for me. But beyond that, I think, he has this way of reminding you to find joy in the moment, to not take life too seriously and to kind of keep some perspective. And I think he's particularly interesting and inspiring because he gives off this spright, like elusive, aloof island vibe.
But at the same time, he's an incredible business person. I mean, if you think of Margaritaville, right, it's probably a billion dollar brand. So I find a lot of inspiration in that because I try to bring joy to the work I do every day.
Certainly, no one gets it perfect, right? But I think you and your team are similar. Like, if we're not enjoying this journey, what's really the point?
What are we doing? Totally. Well, I mean, I certainly resonate with that.
I had an aunt who loved Jimmy Buffett. I also listened to a lot of Jimmy Buffett. And we certainly lost another kind of, I would say similar, in the same vein, probably of just kind of like how people perceive the music.
With Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys, like recently as well, that I think when people hear that type of music, right, it takes them to a different place. And I think that that's the power of both music and books, you know, certainly is to take us to a different place, to put us in different people's shoes. You're probably aware of this, but some cool research out there that shows that people who read, especially fiction, tend to be more empathetic because they're used to putting themselves in the kind of the viewpoint of the character of these books, right?
And so I think it's just such a powerful thing that we can all do. And I love that story of hearing it coming from the restored, you know, like the garage and just all of that. It's really, really inspiring, really cool.
So thanks for sharing. Hopefully we can share a Margarita and have some Jimmy Buffett on the background at some point here in the not too distant futures.
Maybe at Health.
There you go. Yeah, I'm sure there's going to be plenty of health parts. So yeah, Health is coming up in a couple of weeks, right?
For those of you who might be there, I was surprised last year was my first time at Health. And you know, it's like this pretty fun conference that I was like, you know, they had soft serve ice cream at some of the booths during the day and like puppies that you could pet, puppies that were eating ice cream probably, I don't know. It was wild, right?
But then I thought it was the funniest thing that I thought happened was like the last night that Busta Rhymes was plagued. They had like this huge crazy party for like all these people who are innovating in digital health. I just thought that was like a funny contrast of Busta Rhymes kind of coming in at the end of Health to party.
So I wonder who it's going to be this year. But yes, maybe Jimmy, maybe there will be a Jimmy Buffett cover band that, you know, like we'll be there and we can pour one out for them.
Yeah, I could get by a little tribute band action. That's for sure.
There you go. Exactly. Okay, so let's move to kind of how do we make dental care more human, especially from your perspective and where you're sitting.
I think one of the things that has always been really interesting to me is thinking about just, you know, beyond the kind of transactional role of like, hey, we as a dentist, you help keep someone's teeth healthier, even you get them out of pain, right, or whatever. But I feel like health care in general has this kind of broader social good, right? You think about a firefighter and people are like, I want, you know, that they do something important for the community.
And I think when you, maybe dentistry has lost a little bit of this, but I still think especially in small towns, right? I live in a small town. It's like you are a pillar in the community, right?
And people trust you, respect you, you know, have all those things that have historically gone with that. And that has a responsibility, I think, in a lot of ways. And so it's not just, you know, hey, how do we go and do the job that we have to do today, but how do we lean into that responsibility as a profession?
So I'm curious to what you think dentistry's role is there in terms of producing social good and being a kind of leader within healthcare and having that frame for the broader population.
Yeah, you know, I really think dentistry can have a profound role in social good. I mean, even when you just think about the power of a smile, we all focus on straight white teeth as an aesthetic feature, but it's also a source of confidence, a source of dignity, a source of just basic human connection. And, you know, when people feel comfortable smiling, they engage more fully with their communities and their relationships at their jobs.
Certainly, on the public health side, dentistry, you know, prevents streets disease. If left unchecked, impacts all things. And plans have a responsibility to provide, make sure that that care is available to their membership populations.
But to me, it's beyond the clinical. It's also about giving people back this ability to express joy without the hesitation of wanting to hide a smile. And I think there's a real ripple effect to that.
It can change someone's trajectory, whether it opens doors personally or professionally. And to me, that's kind of the greatest social impact and only has upside for us as a society.
Well, and I feel like it can be such a jumping off point for people, too, in terms of maybe if there is broken trust, right? Like with the dental care system in the past and the ability to restore that. The thing about dentistry is everyone goes to see the dentist for the most part, right?
Or can or should, right? Whereas, like, not everyone has diabetes. And so, you know, the I just, you know, speaking for myself, I haven't been to my PCP in a while, probably I should go.
But, you know, like, most people go to the dentist several times a year or a lot of people do, right? And so, the ability to have that kind of consistent healthcare interaction that I feel like is, that you're kind of talking about, that is like, hey, this can be restorative not only for your interaction with that specific dentist or that hygienist or whoever it might be, but with your kind of broader approach to how do I feel when I go to receive healthcare or hopefully not just receive, but participate in my healthcare, right, moving forward. So I think that's such an important point that you're making there.
So, and I mean, to that end, right, like we all are patients. And so we all have experiences with healthcare in general. And then so what's, you know, just curious from your perspective when you go in and you are kind of seen in that moment as a patient, what's one thing that you feel like, hey, this is something that I've experienced that a care team might do, whether in dentistry or somewhere else, that's totally fine too, that builds trust with you, that helps kind of build that bridge that we've talked about both in terms of trust, but humanity and, you know, kind of creating that joy and optimism.
Yeah, I think dentistry, much like broader health care in general, has its roots in this provider knows best and the patient's role is to comply with what the provider says. And I think the intent there is certainly not malicious, but I think the effect can at times leave at least me feeling like maybe I don't have as much agency as I'd like. In my own health journey.
But care teams that have really made a big difference, I think, focus on a couple of things. One is shared decision making. So bringing me as the patient along in the journey into the conversation, not just about treatment plans or procedures, but also about how those treatment plans and procedures might impact my own goals and my own preferences.
And then at the same time, being part of that conversation can also feel really overwhelming and scary, especially if we don't feel educated or informed. Why are you asking me what I want to do? I don't understand the difference between the couple of options.
So that's where I think it becomes important for care teams to take time to provide clear, more plain language explanation of options. And that can really make me feel kind of more at ease. And then I guess for me, the last piece too is like more of a cherry on top.
But do I have visibility into my own health data? And do I have, are there resources out there that can help me to understand the linkage between my own health data? You know, I love to consume information on my own kind of body and what's happening in my body.
I love, you know, I wear an aura ring and I like to track what did I do yesterday and how does it impact my sleep and my readiness? And how does that score compare to how I feel? And I think oral health can do insight into that data, can do a lot of the same things, right?
You can have kind of a big problem in your mouth and you feel fine or it hasn't risen to the point of really impacting you yet so you don't appreciate it. And if we can use data to inform and to catch some of that stuff earlier, I think we would all be kind of better off. So for me, I think it boils down to a bit of kind of visibility, education, agency are what's most important to me.
I love it. Well, two thoughts and curious to your perspective on this, right? So we just released our most recent white paper on variability within dental care and patient's perception of that, right?
And shared decision making from at least a clinical perspective was definitely the highest measure, right? So I think to your point, we probably have a long way to go there. But then I also saw something recently which was interesting that obviously we're in the age of AI doing so many things, right?
And one of the things that I saw was as a medical company, this wasn't in dentistry, but essentially an AI patient advocate that comes along with you to your medical appointments and helps to fill that gap, right? We're like, I don't maybe have the knowledge, but certainly we can probably build models that do. So yeah, those are two things that when you're kind of mentioning that, I was like, oh, these are two things that I think are relevant to that.
Thoughts, reactions, anything to either of those different pieces as we close up here.
Yeah, I love that, and I think it could absolutely help folks, right? Like when you are maybe at the dentist, maybe at a different provider, you might be feeling anxiety. You might feel a sense of overwhelm that kind of prevents you from absorbing all the information that you would otherwise want to, right?
I think we've all had the experience of walking out of a medical appointment saying, oh, shoot, I had like five questions if I had just opened the note on my phone to remind myself what I wanted to ask. So I think you're kind of inundated with information sometimes in appointments, especially if you're encountering maybe an oral health condition or issue that you've not encountered before. An agent like that might be able to remind you after the fact, once you've had time to digest the diagnosis or the issue or whatever it is, and help you understand what was it that your provider said, and rather than having to rely on a MyChart message back to ask a specific question, maybe it can help you to answer some of those initial questions.
I think also some of the technologies specific to... I think of this one more as specific to dental, though I'm sure it has broader applications of, if you have a lot of anxiety, is there a world where a provider locator could tell you, hey, this provider's office offers virtual reality that can put you at ease? I think, to your point on better understanding variability among providers from a clinical perspective, I think there's an element of the experience that could be infused in things like locators as well, so that I can get to a provider that suits my needs, and those needs might be entirely different than what's a priority for you.
Well, we're certainly speaking the same language there, right? I think the general rosters and the directories of just names and very little information beyond that, right, or maybe technical, you know, kind of the qualifications or whatever that, you know, are certainly those are that's not the way people choose providers, right? And so I think there's a lot better and more information that we can share back with patients that will empower patients and that I think will create a kind of virtuous circle, right, within that triangle.
If we think about the inside of it, right, to say, cool, how do we kind of smooth some of these edges and, you know, help providers actually provide the care that patients want, patients choose the care now that they want based on how that information is shared back from the payer or whatever, and then how do we reimburse those kinds of things? And so, and reimbursement doesn't just have to be, and I think, you know, you speak to this in your VBC paper, right, of it doesn't just have to be financial incentives that can be member-steerage, and it can be other things that direct care to places that ultimately provide the kind of care that we're talking about here today. So, yes, 100% stock hands on that one.
So, all right, we will continue to talk. I get to see you next week in Chicago, and then we'll get to be together in health. But for everyone else, they're going to have to reach out to you or find a time to talk with you or connect to you on LinkedIn or whatever it might be.
So, if they want to do that, tell us, you know, hey, what's the best way to get in touch with Caitlin?
Yeah, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I am an avid user of LinkedIn. I'm always scrolling my feed to see what's new in the oral health ecosystem and respond to direct messages pretty quickly.
So feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. And, Matt, thank you for the time. This has been Dental Nerd to Dental Nerd, a really enjoyable conversation and not with the future of the industry here.
Awesome. Well, we appreciate you taking the time to join us to share your perspective. And I'm excited to continue to cheer you along as you do the thing and hopefully work with you, right, in a lot of ways as well in the ways that you're innovating because it is so important.
And I think for a lot of folks in the industry that may just be thinking DSO, DSO, DSO, or whatever it might be, right, like you're serving a really, really important role for us in terms of how do we continue to drive care forward. So on behalf of all of us, thank you.